Hi all!I am a brandnew member and this is my first thread.First excuse my poor english- maybe it is full of mistakes.I write this, because I need help in a difficult question (which might be a stupid question, I don't know.):I live in Switzerland (Europe) and I am an enthusiast of old watches- especially pocket watches. I have a small collection covering the 19th and 20th century.
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Many of my pocket watches are from the Art Deco period, and most of them were either fabricated by USA-brands (Waltham, Elgin etc.) or Swiss made for the american market. I use to look through offers in Ebay USA and from time to time, i can't resist. You know what I mean.I am an also active member on some European forums about pocket watches and I like to post pics of my watches and to tell a bit about them. Other members, some of them experts, look very well what you are writing. If they think, there are mistakes, they post a correction. This is very helpful to prevent nonsense.
Obscure points are discussed- sometimes surprising facts turn up.Some days ago, I posted my new pocket watch. It is an Elgin 386 (Savonette) Ser.nr.
23448151 dating from 1921, cased in a 16S open face case in the Art Deco Railroad style, making a so-called side winder.The focus of interest fell quickly on the case of the watch. It is made by the Star Watch Case Company, signed on the bottom side of the case (very small) with a five-pointed star and behind that BASE METAL.
The material is most likely Nickel-Chrome. On the inside of the case back is embossed 'DEFIANCE' in a cartouche and under it the serial number 1594276. Additionally, the serial number is embossed on the anterior side of the case (without the first 2 numbers)I looked through my collection: It turned out that I have a 'Pilgrim' with a Swiss Meyer & Studeli cal. MST 178, the case is from the same material (Nickel-Chrome), it is identically marked with the star and 'base metal', with 'defiance' and with the serial number 1248028The watch can be seen here:The discussion is in German, unfortunately, but some pics show the watch.
In my first post, I wrote that both the movement and the case may date from the same period and therefore this could be an 'authenitic' sidewinder, which means a new movement cased in anew case soon after production.This was drawn into question- we discussed and ended up with the following:'Defiance' was a grade of the Star WCC for a gold-filled case, and a warranty for 10 years. This warranty is written on the inside of the case back.Those Base-Metal-Defiance cases (like the one of the Elgin sidewinder) were made first in 1947, and in the following years, all of them date not earlier than 1947.Additional cases were made from the 1970s on. (Jon Henson: 'Many of the current Star cases are actually restrikes, made from original dies which were purchased from the original company. If I remember correctly, these began making the horological scene in the 1970s. I was offered the entire grouping of steel dies with various designs some time after restrike production began. Many of the hubs were missing which ruined the deal.'
The serial numbers do not help very much to clear up the age of a case.A Defiance Base metal case may date from any period between 1947, the 1970s and maybe later. No one knows.Is this really all? Were Base Metal Defiance Cases produced from 1947, not earlier?Can the new cases from the 1970s be recognised by specific characters?Can the serial numbers tell anything?What I saw is, that many cases have a serial number starting with a 1 (one million plus X), the lowest number I saw was around 1 million. Other cases have a serial number starting with a 6 (6 millions plus X).If someone can help me with this question, then it is you! Maybe some of you have already cleared up this stuff.The odd-shaped case of the 'Pilgrim' is easy to recognise.maybe someone saw it in an original advertising etc.
And can tell from when it dates.Any informations are very welcome. Thanks a lot for your help in advance!Greetings from SwitzerlandAndi. Hi Jim,thanks for the infos.Unfortunately, the links are not accessible. I was told, that this european forum, which is run by only a few people, had some trouble with some psychos in the past, and so they had to restrict it to members (too many work for the moderators).Concering the Elgin sidewinder, I also think now, that it is some kind of recasing many years after the movement was produced by using a new case which was not in use before.Maybe the Pilgrim is more interesting. The Swiss watch can not be exactly dated. Meyer & Studeli, the maker changed their name to 'Roamer' (as is remember it was at the end of the 30s). The brand 'Pilgrim' is somewhat obscure, it seems that the firm was located in New York.
Pilgrim watches seem to have always inexpensive 6 Jewel Meyer & Studeli movement. It is common to date Pilgrim watches ca. Between the first half of the 1920s and about 1935.The odd-shaped case of my Pilgrim was obviously not used before. If 'Defiance' Base Metal cases date from 1947 onward, this watch has also be regarded as a recasing.This seems not so likely to me, considering the low value (I bought my Pilgrim some months ago for about 30$ in the USA, only required repair: no friction on hands).Some years ago, I had for a short time a 15-jeweled Elgin (dating from 1937) in exactly the same odd-shaped case with exactly the same bow, but it was gilded. And I have seen several of these during the last years on Ebay.I hope, that some other cases of this shape will turn up.
Hi Terry,thank you for your post!